CC #5: Appealing to viewers: Focus on what matters with Erik Hoffman
In this conversation, we sit down with Erik Hoffman and discuss the tactics that streaming providers are using to appeal to viewers in this competitive landscape and whether or not they are putting their energy into the right areas.
Some of the topics that we discuss include:
How platforms are trying to differentiate themselves: a base-plate with a lot of options, a niche player, a free alternative
The importance of putting more focus on your content rather than your brand
Being obvious with your content and where it is on a global level
Making your content easy to find wherever the viewer is searching: Google, aggregating services, on the platform
Creating a strategy with original content vs. acquired content
The difference between attracting new users vs. anti churn
Find the full transcript below.
Mattie: Hey everybody. And welcome back to another Clipsource Conversation. Today I have back with me Eric Hoffman. Eric, thank you for being here again. And actually, Eric and I are going to be doing a few of these episodes where we talk about trends happening in the broadcasting and streaming industries.
So this is the first one of those. And today, we're going to be talking about some of the tactics streaming providers are using to appeal to viewers. And this can be everything from branding to user experience and the content that they offer.
So I think it's going to be really interesting. But of course, before we dive into this, I have to ask, what are you watching right now? Any recommendations?
Erik: Blackbird on Apple TV+. It's a favourite. I just watched that. It's so intense.
Mattie: But okay, so diving into our topic. I guess for me, I think this is interesting because the way that I look at streaming adoption is, is a bit complicated because I feel like, for one, I feel like I'll always be subscribed to Netflix just because it's like the oldest platform. I'm super familiar with it. So whenever I can't find something to watch, I feel like very comfortable going back and like scrolling through their options.
And in terms of adopting a new platform, I feel like I don't usually look for one unless someone has recommended a show or a movie that I really want to see. So, I mean, coming from this point of view, I'm curious to hear what tactics, in addition to content you see streaming platforms using to draw in viewers and I guess keep them in. And do you think that they're putting their energy into the right areas?
Erik: I think we're kind of in the transition from being in this world where when streaming services were new everyone tried to do them like the...
Just trying to be to be a niche player with the best shows and this was top-notch content to pop out. And now we are in the transition to be more like the old linear world that we lived in, where if someone wants to be the daily baseplate in your set of services like you use Netflix, it's when you don't have anything else, you go back there and click through. Just like you had some base package of channels in the past and then there's some that replicate what movie channels might have been in the past and sports channels, for that matter, to be more specific in their content.
So I think we're in the transition as well to go from SVOD services as the primary thing to AVOD. It's already big in the US and in Europe it's growing. So I think those will try to be the baseplate since people don't have to pay for it.
And I mean with 10, 20, 30 streaming services out there, you can't have them all. So you will have room for those free services available. And then on top, you put the niche players when you got some recommendations from friends, etc..
I think Netflix is since they were so early, they can be that base-plate even though they're an SVOD service they have not only all that base content that they used to have which is of course has been a little bit less lately, but they have had quite some time for their originals.
So they have a good library of originals. Yeah, which we've been talking about last time. So I think when it comes to all these niche players and as you mentioned, you get recommendations and we started this call with some recommendations.
Everything is about content. You more or less never recommend a service per se. You recommend some content that you watched. And when you get that counter recommendation and you mostly want to get into that service as soon as possible to to watch the content.
And there are some things that I think will come later when services try to find their branding and how to market themselves against the market. And I think that the best way is to be obvious, to be obvious in the local market.
Be obvious in the global market since now, you and I talked about counter recommendations, but it can as well be on Twitter from a US person and it can be from an Asian person. It can be from wherever in the world, as the world is global and the social media world is global.
So I think the best way to get your content to drive in viewers is to be obvious about your service globally. Not have different names, not have different setups, but do more of the Netflix approach, which Apple is good at as well to have the same content library in a big part of the world as possible.
Mattie: Yeah, so it’s super streamlined everywhere.
Erik: Yeah, exactly. So when you get the recommendation, you can as well get the information about which service it's at.
Mattie: And I notice a lot now, like my family has different platforms or the same platforms as me, but I have I can't watch a lot of the content that they watch that when they recommend a movie like we don't have it over here in Sweden. Yeah. And it's really frustrating and I don't really get that either in terms of so I'm going off on a tangent now, but in terms of like content rights like Netflix, I see this happen to sometimes and with like Amazon Prime and stuff and it's their original shows that I don't have access to here in Sweden, but it's their original content. Like why wouldn't they have it appearing here as well in the United States? That doesn't make any sense to me.
Erik: Yeah, I think it's as always, it's often due to the content rights and that they feel that they can get more revenue from selling it to a different partner in some places in the world, I think.
I think it's terrible from a branding perspective and it's frustrating for a user. And I think as well from the ones that created that content, the producers, the creators, the creative persons, it's not as good as if they got that global reach for one single service.
I have one example that I think I mean for us being in the industry. It's kind of obvious, but it's terrible from a communication perspective. And that's The Bear on the Disney, which was it's a Hulu original.
So in the U.S., it's obviously on Hulu and in Sweden and most places in Europe, those end up on Disney, since Disney owns a bigger part of Hulu but not the entire company. But it was like a few months in between.
So the entire U.S., I think as well, U.K. wrote about how good this series was. But for all of us in the rest of the world, it was impossible to watch it. And, you know, as it been talked about in the past, that drives piracy and the other kind of stuff that's not good to the industry.
So it's to be obvious and get your things out there in an obvious place where people can find it. In a global market, I think that's the key.
Mattie: Yeah. And not complicate it by selling it to different companies and having it on different platforms and not knowing where to find things.
Erik: As mentioned, you have your family in the U.S. and if you get the recommendation and they say it's on this service and then it might the service might not exist in Sweden or it had a different name as some companies have.
So it's kind of. If you are not in the industry and know that this service in the US is the equivalent of this service in Sweden, it's kind of hard to like map that thing out.
Yeah. And this complexity, I mean, it didn't really exist in the linear world since all recommendations, quote-unquote, that you got back then was from the TV magazine. Watching TV later this evening or on your TiVo or whatever you had watching the EPG.
But today, when you have these libraries of content to watch, you need to find out all the recommendations. There are, of course, services for it, like Just Watch or Play Pilot and a few others. So it's possible.
But I mean, that's obvious. Always wins. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that. Like most of people don't know of these services. Yeah. And they go when they want to watch content, they go to their TV set up, they try to get into a service and watch the content.
They don't want to get the secondary device. Go to the website that they might not remember the name of. Search for the content just to get to the services it's on. Then go to the TV, go into that service and find the content.
You need to lower the threshold. We need to make it more obvious.
Mattie: Yeah. So just making sure. Yeah. Companies, I mean, just making their content easy to access and so people know where to find it. So, like, I mean, in terms of brand then, you know, like having your name so like HBO, Amazon, Netflix, whatever it is, Paramount - does that go anywhere? Like do you think like people looking I mean, I don't even know how people shop for streaming platforms besides looking for content like I said. So like, do you think that them having these big names connected to the content that they offer is a driving factor? Like when it comes to like marketing and bringing in new viewers?
Erik: I think like back in the linear world, so to speak, there was more of a branding of the channel itself or the company itself, since you couldn't really market works on the channels, since it would differ from the days to weeks to the months.
Marketing your company or channel nowadays doesn't really matter since everyone is on the same platforms. On all platforms, it's as easy as anything to browse all of them. And, the visibility of the content and which content you have is, is the key.
As mentioned earlier, we get recommendations on the series names, not on the service itself. I think what we want to do with that when we have the content in place is to make it easier to find where it's at, whether it's through the services mentioned that aggregate the services and the content, or whether it's through Google.
So what you as a streaming service should probably look into is to, except having great content, to have great metadata, to be searchable. When we search for your content, you should be on top on Google. You should be the one popping out on these aggregating services for having the best metadata and having everything set up in the best possible way to make it searchable. Yeah. People search for the content they get recommended. They don't search for the service.
Mattie: In terms of marketing then it's really just focusing on the content, making sure that each piece of content is rich and not necessarily about it even has to be tied to your brand or your platform or whatever. But just that. Yeah. When someone looks for it, they find that you have it there. And I mean, it's always changing, too. Right. I mean, the rights of content these days are always changing. So branding it as your own doesn't necessarily matter anymore because soon it might be somebody else's.
Erik: Yeah. And I mean, for originals you have to separate originals from the rights that you purchased on the market, since originals will most probably be a more long-term right that you have. And you can have a different market plan that's more long-term. Though on content that you buy you might want to just get that as much reach as possible before the premier gets as many people as possible in.
And then when you have the people in your service, it's a different thing because then you can try to reach out to them with all your other content. Yeah. So, so I think there are different things that come to get new users more versus the anti-churn part to get them to be in the service.
Because if you were to market every content as your primary driver, it would be quite expensive. Yeah. So looking back at Netflix once again, they have a few originals that they market really much that you really hear about everywhere and they will launch.
Then they have I mean, they launched with 10, 15, 20 originals each month. But you hear about one or two of them. Yeah. So it's the build this wider catalog of content to keep you in the service as that base catalog that you have now.
And there is so much to see when you're in the service.
Mattie: What about to like, I mean, like I said, I, I like going back to Netflix because I like the way that they recommend stuff and the way that they categorize stuff.
But that's just me. But for you, what do you think about, like, the user experience as you know, as much as also having the content? Do you think that that plays a role or is it mostly just the content that matters and user experience people can learn to get used to?
Erik: I think the user experience is more of an anti-churn thing that you won't cancel the subscription. Or it's less risk of you cancelling the subscription and it's a good platform and they are good at recommending new content and all of that since.
None of these services has a big catalog or they do, but they do not have like a Spotify-sized catalog. So they have to make the impression of having more content than they actually have.
And Netflix is, of course, really good about this. So if you search for a movie, if it's a movie that doesn't exist in their catalog, you still get the result. You get very, very much result. You get a good result as well.
If you search for a movie which has one lead actor, you'll get not that one of course, if they don't have it, but other movies with the same lead actor and so on. So they have this search as a recommendation engine more or less.
Yeah, but then there's things on Netflix that I think can be a blocker for these mouth-to-mouth recommendations that we talk about. And that's, that's a change to images of the assets within the app. Hmm. I know that they do it because they think it's a and it possibly is a driver to get you into watching something.
I watched a few years ago Marcella with Anna Friel. And when I finished it and got back to the start page, I saw some Jamie Oliver food program and they had put Anna Friel on the front of the cover imagebecause I watched the Anna Friel series.
But the complexity of this is that if you don't remember a series by name, you might remember a series by its cover image. And if you can't find that same cover image, it's hard to get back to that one.
And the same goes for recommendations. If I recommend you and I don't really remember the name of it, but roughly remember it and then describe the image, how to cover image looks, then it's kind of hard for you to find it if they change the image.
Mattie: Yeah, you need consistency. So that's something that you think isn't the best. And I totally agree with that. But have you seen anything else being done on other platforms where you're like, this probably isn't the best tactic or maybe you're focusing on the wrong things.
Erik: I think. To have a good search in place is since now most recommendation is mouth to mouth or reading a social media or newspaper or wherever this is. So once you get into the service to search, you find it.
I think a lot of the services out there have some kind of internal browsing system of content, have all sub-departments of the company listed, and that's actually multiple services out there that do that. And I can understand it when it comes to like fantasy worlds or something like that, like Star Wars or Marvel or DC or whatever it might be. But when it's when it comes down to like a production company for movies, then it's kind of complex for the viewer to find out, was this a MGM or was it Paramount Picture or was it Lionsgate?
Mattie: Yeah no one searches like that.
Erik: No one in the industry really knows which production companies movies are under. I mean you can know a few but you don't know them all.
Mattie: So what you said in terms of just keeping content obvious like a comedy, put it under comedies, don't put it under MGM.
Erik: I think you should look into how content is spread today It has made this transition from being TV magazines, with schedules, EPGs, and maybe a few reviews to aglobal world.
When you are at your hairdresser, when there is Twitter, Facebook, global TV magazines, etc. so you don't really have that you're not that specific in. Where it's at, the production of it. All those details might have been in a TV-specific magazine back in the day.
Now you more or less only remember the content title and then you try to find it. It's not that other stuff isn't as important anymore. And since a lot of this heavy lifting of finding things, you need the metadata to be good. We need it to be searchable. We need it to be browsable on Google on your service, the aggregators.
Mattie: I think this is such an interesting point that you made because in regards to being able to find the show that you're looking for, the other week there was this article about the premier of Yellowstone or something…
Erik: Yeah, season five of Yellowstone. It was said to be premiered through the Paramount app on Roku, Amazon and the different other platforms.
Mattie: But people couldn't find it right? Like something was there, but whenever anybody searched, no one could find it. And there was like this chaos and everyone was like, where is the season of Yellow Stone? Yeah. But what happened with that? It was something wrong with metadata…?
Erik: The thing is that all these platforms being aggregators have different APIs to get the metadata searchable within their platform. So when you're on Apple TV, you can get into the Apple TV plus app to search for content within the other apps.
So it's like a global search on the platform and the same is on Roku and Amazon, etc. So what you need to do is to get your content searchable within these apps to make them understand that, okay, this app have this content, so if the user search for Yellowstone, in this case the platform needs to understand, okay, it exists in Peacock or Paramount+ or whatever it might be. And in this specific scenario, it was missed to be pushed to Roku and Amazon to be searchable that it existed in Paramount's application.
Since it's Paramount original, it's expected to be there. But I mean, as we said before, the end user might not know that it is paramount original they might not know that in the Paramount+ application they just get the recommendation or the marketing that season five of Yellowstone is out.
They could get into their platform, which is through Roku or Amazon in this case, they search for Yellowstone to get it. And since Paramount then in this scenario and it happens to a lot of services a lot of times and had some mistakes in pushing that metadata to the platform, it didn't come up as an app.
Mattie: Okay and no one could find it.
Erik: So it was I mean it's terrible when you have a premiere of such big title season five and no one can find it from how the user tries to find the content. If you were to look into the Paramount app directly, you would find it. So it's just how the user tries to find the content.
Mattie: But for me, I guess I didn't know, like I've never watched Yellowstone, but like we said, we only identify with titles. I didn't know that it was a Paramount original. So like I wouldn't even know where to look for it if I was searching for it, you know, I would probably go to Google, but that also shows how important it is that your content is showing up wherever anybody is searching for it that they can find it. It's like, Yeah, I would never just go start searching through streaming platforms to find what I'm looking for.
Erik: Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, when you're at your TV, you search through that TV platform search. That's yeah, that's how you do it.
And since you then get the direct link into the app with its content, not being there is the biggest mistake you can do, especially with the launch of a new season or big title. Yeah. So to get the metadata right, to get the distribution of the metadata right is so important to be out there not only on Google and the aggregators but on the platforms as aggregators. Yeah, and all of them. It's a lot of them. It's a lot of work. But that's why we are here.
Mattie: Yes, exactly. Yeah. I have to ask I have one more question in terms of pricing, what do you think about pricing models?
Because for me, I think it's funny, like HBO did that campaign where it's like you pay $3 forever a month. And I feel myself like even if there's nothing on HBO I want to watch, I have a hard time canceling that subscription knowing that I'm losing that deal forever.
Like, do you think things like that are a good tactic or like does it make a difference at the end of the day? Like, I have no idea.
Erik: I think it's a very good tactic. I think it's. Yes, as you mentioned you don't want to cancel it when you're on.
Yeah. And that's probably what they are looking at. So if you are a service that has the full price on a monthly basis, you might have three or four frontrunners for the year. So you get that, that month and then you get no revenue from that user and then that month and then it goes on.
And then from this service where you have lower monthly subscription payments, but you get it through the years since you don't want to cancel, get this lower threshold for the year, but if you ever average it out over a year, it's probably kind of the same.
Okay. Since, I mean, say to have three or four front runners for you on one service for one year, that's quite a lot. It's one per quarter. But if you get that lower payment for the year, they don't really need more than like one series and you stay. So I think it's kind of even for the years which they know when they get the more calculable revenue. They know what they get from you, where the other ones need to really work for it to get you on board.
And to get a new user is more expensive since you need to reach out with your content in the marketing. Otherwise, you don't know that it's in there while on the service that you're still subscribed to you go in from time to time to see if there's something new. So it's kind of cheap marketing to get you to watch something while you're. Yeah. So I think I think it's a good approach. I understand it.
Mattie: Yeah, it made sense to me now, especially since this has been a few dips where like, oh, The Handmaid's Tale
is here and I'm super excited. And then it ends and I'm like, but there's nothing I wanna watch here now. But I'm not going to cancel because something else will come up.
Erik: Yeah. Handmaid's Tale is yet another one of these being on different services in different countries. It's a Hulu original as well, right?
Mattie: Yeah, it is. So I mean, I guess it would have been on Disney then, technically, no.
Yeah, but in Sweden it's on HBO.
Erik: Yes. I thought it was super confusing.
Mattie: Yes it is unless you just know that. Yeah. Okay. Well I mean, I feel like we covered a lot, so thanks so much for talking to me about the tactics that streaming companies are using and should be using and should be focusing on to drive in viewers.
And I'm so excited for our next episode together.
